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Kyth · 05-13-2005, 05:51 AM

I find this comment "adds more" to the piece: Nick, I appreciate that your view of intra-guild gender complications is that "that dynamic has as much to do with the men as it does with the women." However, I believe you are projecting your beliefs onto Talon's statements. Did he say "Having both men and women in a high-end raiding guild is difficult and complicated because of the inevitable issues both men and women have?" No, he said that women--women specifically--lack the ability to be disciplined in a high-end guild. Even worse, women use their wiles to undermine his authority with other men--men who would never have the nerve to question him otherwise. I find interesting Talon's assumption that the men supposedly intervening on behalf of these maidens in distress don't agree with the woman, implied in Talon's added "(yeah, right)". As a woman, I have been in situations where men have used me as a pretext to express their own feelings to other men--"I'm not upset, of course, but she is hurt." But in Talon's world view, men are straightforward and honest and would never rock the boat unless those wicked sirens were seducing them to do it. We can debate about whether gender relations make it difficult to run a high-end guild. We can even debate about whether a sexist guild leader can run such a guild better. But let's at least be clear in our definitions. If saying "Women are whiney and manipulative, so I don't like them in my guild. Male students are best" is not sexist, then I am impressed at the strictness of your definition. -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Nolan · 05-13-2005, 02:31 PM

I was e-mailed tonight that Daedalus was updated and found an interesting article that I thought a lot of you would enjoy reading, <a href="http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001334.php">here</a>. Sorry if this is a forum re-post, Daedalus is a pretty popular site.
 
I think this comment adds a lot to the piece, as well:
 
<div class="quote">The primary skills that make one be a good guild leader are organisational and managerial skills, not gaming ones. It is usually very easy to identify the actual gender of a player, if one has any experience in working with groups of people online.
 In most large guilds players talk about their personal lives, have webpages with photos of players, gather together in person regionally and otherwise get quite chummy. I know most of the people I have guilded with by their first and last names, as well as their online handles. MMOs are not populated by totally anonymous, mysterious strangers, contrary to popular belief.
 Guilds like Talon's are present on any server. There is always a population of people, who want to operate in a militaristic and disciplined way. A disporportionate number of MMO players have military training, or are currently in the militaries of various countries, and they tend to be serious, goal oriented people. What they are achieving may not be meaningful to you, but it may be very meaningful or valuable to them. I'm sure that they are enjoying themselves and having fun while they go about their achievements, despite their commitment to rigid discipline.</div> <hr align="left" noshade size="1" width="30%">
Nolan Edited by nolan 5/12/2005 10:58 PM (Most Recent)

Corinth Soulfire · 05-20-2005, 07:55 PM

Kyth, I have a homework assignment for you... Read some old world and ancient philosophy literature, Plato, J.J. Rousseau, etc. I believe you have good intentions but reality is flawed. These books will open your mind to how politics, in any form, work within the social arena. I have several hard-bound philosophy books around the house if you are interested! = ) I did not read Talon's post because from Kyth's quoting it seems only half truth... Men are not necassarily directly controlled by 'those wicked sirens'. More to my point. I am far from thinking that the ascendancy which women have obtained over men is an evil in itself. It is a gift which nature has made them for the good of mankind. If better directed, it might be productive of as much good, as it is now of evil. We are not sufficiently sensible of what advantage it would be to society to give a better education to that half of our species which governs the other. Men will always be what women choose to make them. If you wish that they be noble and virtuous, let women be taught what greatness of soul and virtue are. The ideas which this subject arouses, and which Plato formerly made, deserve to be more fully developed. This may be an an excuse for the moral decay of our society, but to better illustrate my point... Look at a long time married couple, most often than not the woman is called the 'boss' even by their children. Think about that. Maybe Devisri will have something to add, I think she has her doctorate of psycology, ( a very different field from philosphy ) and can give us a scientific answer ; p Al'Kabor's First Evil Paladin!

<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1014548"> Teh Sir FROAK!

Kyth · 05-20-2005, 08:05 PM

Cor hun, did you even READ the article? What I quoted was responding to the bit where the interviewee stated basically that women had no place in MMORPG's, that they just tempted the men and caused problems. The response I quoted pointed out that it's a 2-way street with both genders participating. Your response seems to support the article's position -- I certainly hope you don't mean it that way. And if you do, please don't respond to this. I enjoy thinking of you as someone who doesn't stereotype genders and play to traditional (or trendy modern) ideas of what everyone is "supposed" to be. Especially in a game like this where you really have no clue what someone's real gender is. And yes, I was a religious philosophy major. Thanks. I'm already well familiar with it. Just because it was written a long time ago doesn't make something right. Think about that, evaluate, and form your own conclusions about what you read. -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Corinth Soulfire · 05-20-2005, 08:42 PM

Kyth said: <center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: 

The response I quoted pointed out that it's a 2-way street with both genders participating.

Your response seems to support the article's position -- I certainly hope you don't mean it that way.

And if you do, please don't respond to this. I enjoy thinking of you as someone who doesn't stereotype genders and play to traditional (or trendy modern) ideas of what everyone is "supposed" to be. Especially in a game like this where you really have no clue what someone's real gender is.
<hr></div></center>

I agree with you. It is a two-way street, and I do not support the ideas of the 'No girls allowed' attitude. Reminds me of ignorant school boys.

We are all bound by human nature, and as technology and people's minds advance we are changing that definition. We all have the capacity to exceed beyond (in small steps) what we were created. I believe our guild has tested and in many cases broken what is traditionally thought to be human nature* ( read my previous post* ). It is like a never-ending spiraling cycle... It can spiral up or down depending on what we hope to achieve, but with our ever wasteful and lustful nature, we will degrade into oblivion... Where that point is? Only God knows...

It is very difficult for me to express my thoughts in writing, for those who have spoken with me in depth online. I often frustrate Kyth and other officers by my poor abilities to convey my true thoughts through a keyboard. If you were offended by these posts, please re-read my original... It is NOT meant as a degrading statement towards the opposite sex, more as the ultimate compliment.

Anyway. I am already bored of this subject... Sorry for wasting everyone's time ; p Al'Kabor's First Evil Paladin!

<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1014548"> Teh Sir FROAK!

Corinth Soulfire · 05-20-2005, 08:53 PM

No text was entered for this message. Al'Kabor's First Evil Paladin!

<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1014548"> Teh Sir FROAK!

Soul · 05-20-2005, 09:05 PM

<quote>If you wish that they be noble and virtuous, let women be taught what greatness of soul and virtue are.</quote> --- Totally, Soul is greatness.*shameless fluff* <marquee>Soul </marquee> ÃÂ¢Ã¢âÂ¬ÃÂ¢<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1170329">Soul Destroyer</a> 65 SHM ÃÂ¢Ã¢âÂ¬ÃÂ¢<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1178033">Trog</a> 65 SK ÃÂ¢Ã¢âÂ¬ÃÂ¢<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1277406">Rhaughne Dragonlord</a> 65 BL -Friend of the Horde- -Member of Temerity-
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Janribet · 05-20-2005, 09:14 PM

Oh dear..... (masculine for feminine) My Cuse went down like a Lead Zeppelin.