Akin to ramp...: "long standing" MMO mysteries

[Kyth]

The recent (and by recent I mean "monthly") revitalization of the ramp debate called to mind this discovery in "that other game."

There's a mob that has been in the game since launch (Onyxia) -- she was the first boss who was encountered, and is a big watershed for any guild.

However there has been, for two years, no clue how her aggro works between phases.


What everyone thought they knew:

Phase 1 she attacks the tank, periodically doing a deaggro move on him (so everyone has to stay pretty low on the hate list.)

Phase 2 she flies in the air and fireballs people at random.

Phase 3 she lands, and... this is where it got weird. People reported that it seemed that certain classes would be more likely to have aggro from her on landing. And it could be pretty hard for the tank to get aggro back, sometimes very hard (like 30-40 seconds worth of aggressive aggro building) -- but it seemed it was sometimes easier for the tank to regain control with fewer people in the raid (?).


There's been debate about it since people started trying to figure out the details of the encounter.

Finally someone figured it out. The actual "figuring it out" post is: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic...53#p252453

But the entire thread is really interesting to read, if only from an analytic/fun perspective, watching people try to puzzle out something that might not even have an answer.

If you don't want to spoil the surprise, the thread begins http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic...d=9290&p=1 (and the solution is on page 13.)


The first time I read it I thought of EQ's rampage, but never posted. So, now I have. If I'm the only one who loves this kind of hunt then so be it. But maybe some other folks here do too .

[Sayre]

Well, Kyth started the WoW thread, so I can't be blamed for this but I can give my opinion for the few who might care.

We have always felt that Onyxia crazy phase 3 aggro was due to social aggro from the whelps. Thusly, in phase 2 we have our MT grab as many whelps as he can and piss them off to all hell but not kill them. This seems to work well. Whether this is the whole story or not is unclear. It is quite clear to me that the phase 2 damage is not related as I am commonly on top of phase 2 damage and the only time I have ever gotten phase 3 transition aggro is when I used drain life on a whelp after the transition to self-heal. Since it is well documented that drain life has no heal aggro (only the damage causes aggro), that supports the idea that social aggro from the whelps is very important (and is how I came to the idea for the MT to grab the whelps).

On the rampage issue, I am a strong supporter of the Dani theory (well the theory that Dani read about and talks about). This is mostly based on the fact that complete mem blurring is well documented to clear rampage, and I very strongly feel that dying does a complete 100% unresistable memblur (identical to zoning) but it also documented that rezzing can get you immediate ramp splatted. These unreconcilable facts can only be explained by a theory like that Dani supports.

- Sayre

[Kyth]

Sayre, read the linked thread . It's not social whelp aggro. The fireball is a deaggro -- that 100% matches observed/tested behavior.

[Sayre]

Sayre, read the linked thread . It's not social whelp aggro. The fireball is a deaggro -- that 100% matches observed/tested behavior.

I read it. Don't really believe it, but I read it.

- Sayre

[Kyth]

Watch it on your next Ony kill. I've done 4 since that post and it was 100% on every time.

Pretty cool to see actually .

Kenco, who made the post, is the author of KLHThreatMeter, was rather fitting that he be the one who figured out the mechanic.

[Gnatzilla]

Sure now that Ony barely makes it to phase 3 most of the time they figure it out.

[Thiklan]

Mmmmm, yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you guys to come in on Saturday this weekend...

:eek:

Thik

[Utdaan]

Mmmmm, yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you guys to come in on Saturday this weekend...

He means into Al`Kabor. LMM has been looking at Kyth and Sayre funny, and pointing at Tofu and Gnatzilla and calling them pansy arsed n00bs.

(would really be nice to see a bunch of the old timers log on at once to take down another PoP god)

[Bayle]

Phase 2 she flies in the air and fireballs people at random.

Phase 3 she lands, and... this is where it got weird. People reported that it seemed that certain classes would be more likely to have aggro from her on landing. And it could be pretty hard for the tank to get aggro back, sometimes very hard (like 30-40 seconds worth of aggressive aggro building) -- but it seemed it was sometimes easier for the tank to regain control with fewer people in the raid (?).

I was always under the impression that phase 2 was more of an AoE out of the cracks in the floor. By standing on the wall surrounding the "arena" you can almost always avoid fire damage. Granted you would have to run back to below Ony to land attacks/spells, but you get a warning before this AoE goes off and running and getting on to the walls around the sides helped avoid the damage taken. Granted i haven't played WoW or raided Ony in quite a while now, but after doing the fight some 30 times, i kinda got it down to a science. Has the fight been changed recently?

Also, agro in to phase 3 never really seemed to be a problem for us. after phase 2 was over and Ony was landing, hunters/rogues were asked to FD/Evade(if that's what its called, can't remember) to drop agro, while casters drank to get mana back and healed. During the fight we were always ordered to stay clearly away from the whelps and the tail, and our MT found a nice little niche on the back wall in the middle where he could tank without being pushed or moved.

I don't have time now to read through the thread, but i will. Also keep in mind it's been a while since i have done the encounter.

I agree with them too, go ahead and come in on Saturday. We are also going to need you to come in on Sunday too. See, we lost some people so we are going to kinda have to play catch up. All right?

[Sukaisi]

Well, as someone who has ACTUALLY tanked Ony...getting aggro back only got hard when ppl got casual about the encounter and didn't bother clearing DoTs. And then it's a real pita, and you basically have to wait for all the dots to come off before it's even worth trying to get it. It was the fight where we first discovered the powerful Bandaging Aggro though, which turned out to be quite useful in BWL if some twit buffed while you were pulling a drake or Chromaggus.

Also, she only does the AoE in Phase 2 if dps is low. That's also the factor in how frequently she fears in Phase 3.

[Mangroas]

Onyxia takes a deep breathe!

*runs to the side of the room...*

Eh.. I dunno if the fearing factors into the amount of dps in phase 2, considering dps is hardly an issue during phase 2 yet she feared quite a bit during phase 3. (Observed just yesterday)

On the plus side, I for once outdps my raid of 36'ish yesterday for Onyxia. (not that that says much)

[Kyth]

Sukaisi: yeah I discovered bandaging aggro the hard way... >.> Ditto hitting shadow ward when they're pulling the horsies in naxx. Sorta like sitting on a pull really lol. (and I still stand up, even if I'm eating/drinking, when a pull happens -- too many years of indoctrination!)

Anyways folks on that thread have tanked her too. Not sure why there's so much hostility/suspicion around it, heh. The new KTM has the Ony changes built in, so feel free to download it and run with it =). We have and we're quite pleased with it, as it lets those folks who will have p3 aggro move to the tanking spot so you have less chaos when she lands (which was our issue -- not the tanks getting aggro back, but when it happens to be on a random pug idiot who won't move to the tanking spot and you start spraying your raid with AE's.)



Anub (Naxx) on 12/13 (our 2nd time since 2.0 -- first time I pulled aggro at 40% and died.... oops...)





Anub on 12/19 (after more practice with spec, but with 300-400ms latency and 2-3fps due to being on laptop at the hotel.)





After we start up raiding again, I'll be on my new desktop and fully experienced with my spec. I'll demand tranquil air and expect to wtfpwn .

[Sukaisi]

Onyxia takes a deep breathe!

*runs to the side of the room...*

Eh.. I dunno if the fearing factors into the amount of dps in phase 2, considering dps is hardly an issue during phase 2 yet she feared quite a bit during phase 3. (Observed just yesterday)

No, I meant your dps in Phase 3 affects the frequency of fears in Phase 3. Like, she'll fear more often (usually before berserker rage cooldown) if the raid's dps is low.

[Sukaisi]

Not sure why there's so much hostility/suspicion around it, heh.

I don't know why there's still so much discussion about it, rly. I mean, she's very old content and completely trivial (and irrelevant) for most of the guilds who even bother with this kind of research and analysis. We let rogues tank her now, ffs, and we were never in the class of Risen or EJ or any of the other elite guilds.

[Kyth]

Because it's cool and fun and interesting?

I dunno. Yeah we just pug Ony now with the same set of people we take to our pug MC's. I just like game mechanics and find stuff interesting. Things like rampage, ony phase 2-3, etc. that last for a while before being 'figured out', even if it's just due to occasional bugs that throw you off the scent absolutely enthrall me, as I said at the start.

I found the developing of the 4 horsemen strat very interesting at the time -- as when the zone was first launched, every way you looked at it the fight just seemed impossible.

Now, sure, everyone knows how you rotate people in X different groups to avoid stacking the marks too high, etc. But wow, what a *fascinating* encounter.