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Lore · 02-03-2005, 10:59 AM

So, its 5 am and since I am a total insomniac I figured this would be the perfect opportunity to sit down and finally answer a few enchanter questions that have been popping up over the last month of raiding. First off let me tackle mezzing and why we don't do it every time we see more than one mob. 1. We have more than enough split tanks. When we are fighting trash mobs (and by trash mobs I mean generally any mob that isn't our main intended target, all the meaningless dudes we could otherwise clear with a group) we are generally working against the clock. We want to get in and get out asap. Everything is usually chop chop chop. We have splits for all of those guys in general. Really, I'm not nuts when I see one of our rangers acting as a perfectly capable split tank... really, they can do it. By the time you choose a mob and tash and mez, we already have a split on it, less than a minute later it's dead. Not to mention, good luck telling which split which mob is mezzed. 2. Furthermore, if this even were not the case, think efficiency. In a raid, and we all know everyone<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_grin.gif"> reads all the chat that is going on in /rs. A mez announcement, especially if unexpected, can go unseen. Yeah, I would love to say everyone should read every ounce of /rs, but it ain't going to happen. So instead of mezzing the mob only to have it broken by a dot or whatever and putting your ass at risk, look around and use your best judgment. Are you going to wind up being pounded on after you have tried to mez the same mob multiple times? Are you going to make the split in your group change targets because after your poor little chantie butt got pounded on, your healer tried to heal you and got agro and now your split has to save the day? See the mess it can make when the much simpler and practical solution is let the split tanks do their job? I will admit, every situation is different. There are times that yes, we mez, but in general, look at the classes in the raid and act accordingly. Look at our force and use your best judgment, but please don't think "I'm an enchanter... I'm CC.... I MUST MEZ!" If Spin or I say don't mez, then don't mez. Charm one if you feel the need and add to dps, but announce it, shrink it, and at an appropriate time keel da pet (uh I know I probably don't have to say it, but let the MA know when you are going to break your charm so he/she can deal with it, don't just assume someone is going to come to the rescue) On the topic of AE tashing, I know its hard to believe, but really its a very easy thing to do without getting dead. 1. Make sure you have a healer in your group, if you don't, don't ae tash 2. Put on rune 3. Do a quick looksie and make sure that for every mob there is a split Yes, you can ae tash the minute you see them, trust your splits. They know what they are doing and in all honesty I have never had more than 20% of my health taken away when ae tashing. It's easy... really it is, its just a matter of looking over your shoulder first. Oh and please don't ae tash without having people know what you are doing before hand it makes <a href="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3465">baby joseph sayer</a> cry. I know a lot of you enchanters that are new to playing with us just have to get used to our way of doing things. So many of us group within guild so often that we tend to know the playing styles of our fellow guildies, so I'm sure we have a trust in each other that may seem a little more than chaotic to the outside viewer. My best advice when joining one of our raids.... listen up, ask questions, do what you have been assigned to do and have some fun. Okay, its now almost 6 am and I know I'm probably totally rambling, so I'm finally going to try to sleep. Sorry for the long post, but i figure its much easier to just get it out in one fell swoop than to keep saying it in tells<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> Did I leave anything out Spin?<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=856172">Lore Item</a>
 
<quote>Saying Windows is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing youve witnessed the second coming - Guy Kawasaki, 1995</quote> Edited by Lorelei 2/3/2005 6:21 AM (Most Recent)

SunRa · 02-03-2005, 12:30 PM

I can certainly see how an enchanter who has never raided with us would feel the need for CC.  An announcement of an inc %T is made and bam there are 5 mobs all there.  The feeling of the need to mezz must be uncontrolable.  We have a large number of capable STs for such clearing and people just need to trust the splits to do their jobs.  UP and SSRA basement are two spots where multiple mobs per pull are basically required.  Let the tanks tank, and let the dps do dps. One comment I would like to add which is aimed at everyone new to raiding with us, assist the MA.  Make sure you have a hotkey made (/assist xxxx) and mash that bugger.  That is the mob you should be working on.  Slowers should slow adds, but that is about it.  All the STs are very capable of holding their own against the mobs they are tanking.  If everyone else assists the MA, their mob dies much faster and they can move on to the next mob that much more quickly.  Some classes (aka BLs) have a hard time holding aggro if people are nuking the bejezus out of the mob the BL is on.  Yet one more reason to make sure you assist the MA. I think our clearing for boss mobs can best be described with two words.  Organized Chaos.  From a newcomers perspective it looks like things went horribly wrong, but once you get used to it you realize how fast an area gets cleared. [edit] I'm adding this because it has come up in questions to me from several people in a couple raids.  When you see tanks going down, and you think all is lost, before you send a question about "what should I do", realize I am going to answer "assist new MA".  We've had all plate classes go down on boss mobs and had leather tanks take the pounding while the casters finish off bosses.  Our job is to stand and fight.  If things are going to hell and there is no way we will survive, our job is to stand and fight to make sure one cleric gets camped out. -- <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=767412" target="new">SunRa Wosret</a> Feral Lord, Gnome Eater <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1065146" target="new">Sekhmet Geb</a> 64 Tree Hugger "Live fast, die young and leave a magnificent looking corpse." <img alt="" src="http://www.frivolity.com/eq/eqq/q-eilsex.gif" align="bottom" border="0" hspace="0"> Edited by sunra 2/3/2005 7:38 AM (Most Recent)

Kyth · 02-03-2005, 03:22 PM

<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: Charm one if you feel the need and add to dps, but announce it, shrink it, and at an appropriate time keel da pet (uh I know I probably don't have to say it, but let the MA know when you are going to break your charm so he/she can deal with it, don't just assume someone is going to come to the rescue)<hr></div></center>

Actually I'd like to modify this (sorry Lore!) -- do not charm, even DC, unless you've checked with the raidleader or whoever is giving chanter orders that day.

There are places where any sort of charm just cannot happen, and it could be easy to miss a charm message.

*Especially* do not regular-charm without talking to the raidleader. -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Utdaan · 02-03-2005, 03:49 PM

Post retracted.. 
I will probably not post on these forums again. Sorry for the inconvience. <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=834254" target="_Blank"><img src="http://members.cox.net/fbiven/testbanner.jpg"></img></a> 
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<OPTION>Brewing (143)</OPTION></SELECT> Edited by Utdaan 2/3/2005 11:58 AM (Most Recent)

Kyth · 02-03-2005, 03:55 PM

Easy there, tiger. First off, "well in our guild" can be a way of saying "Sorry, this is why I was used to it", it's not necessarily a challenge to your way of doing things. Secondly, Temerity does not have the monopoly on raid tactics. I look forwards to the feedback and dialogs with the new folks about ways that we might be more efficient. Finally, nothing you're posting there hasn't happened from long-time tem-tagged people during raids, so relax, go get a beer, and come back in a touchy feely mood. This isn't an us versus them, this is a group of people regardless of tag, working together to kill something, and I expect everyone to remain polite and constructive during the raid and on the forums. There's a lot of Temerity learning here too, we probably aren't communicating all of the pertinent details because we're so used to how we do things. When you add just one or two people, they can pretty easily just pick up the flow. When you add a lot, you get far more obvious cultural/tactical clashes, and the fact that, say, we didn't mention that half of UP was about to come to the raid can cause problems. -- 
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SunRa · 02-03-2005, 03:57 PM

Wow Utd, where did that come from?  This thread is meant to help new people understand what / how we do things.  I am a bit put off by the ending comments, seems a bit too damned cocky for a helpful thread.  New peeps are just trying to do what they can to help, it is our job to 1) help them along the process and 2) perhaps even gleam some helpful information from them.  There is no single one way to raid. I totally understand the chanters desire to mezz.  No one said 4 or 5 mobs would be incoming with each pull.  It is true that the RL called out a MA and 4 STs, but if you have never once raided with us, what is that supposed to mean?  If you are a CC class and you see one mob being called as incoming and you see 4 adds, what is your first reflex?  Mezz of course. I sent a tell to zorb during the clearing, he made a /rs (and possibly a /tell as well) and the mass mezzing stopped. -- <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=767412" target="new">SunRa Wosret</a> Feral Lord, Gnome Eater <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1065146" target="new">Sekhmet Geb</a> 64 Tree Hugger "Live fast, die young and leave a magnificent looking corpse." <img alt="" src="http://www.frivolity.com/eq/eqq/q-eilsex.gif" align="bottom" border="0" hspace="0">

Utdaan · 02-03-2005, 04:07 PM

You know...It wasn't intended to be a slam on anyone or any guild. I was posting MY perspective as a ST and showing WHY it is important to follow instructions or to communicate. If anyone has taken my post as a direct complaint against any individual, I sincerly appologize since that was not my intent at all. <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=834254" target="_Blank"><img src="http://members.cox.net/fbiven/testbanner.jpg"></img></a> 
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Kandyl · 02-03-2005, 04:34 PM

I think this thread can be boiled down to a nice short summary that is wise advise for all classes: listen to the raid leader. 
 
The raid leader will announce how to address crowd control on each raid, along with other directions. If split tanks are announced, that's how we're handling the situation at that moment in time. 
 
If you have any questions about your role, please ask your sponsor/host or a guild member of your class. If you arrive late or miss raid directions, again, ask your group, your sponsor/host, or a guild member of your class who to assist and what additional things you should be doing. Kandyl (<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=991853&resize=true" TARGET="magelo">Magelo</A>)

Build · 02-03-2005, 05:02 PM

I have had Mobs Charmed on me before. I can tell when i no longer get hit and i am no longer doing any damage to the mob. I then move on to tank a different mob or call another mob if i am MA.
 
Is it annoying Yes
 
But it part of what Enchanters are all about and what they bring to the party.
 
as far as mezzing incoming Mobs it only wasting the enchanters mana it has no effect on if i will get Aggro or not.
 
But PLEASE DO Shut up and listen to the Raid leaders. IT HARD to get their point across with having to type in all the orders and then to compete with the Clutter that goes on in raid say.
 
Their is other channels you can talk in and have a ball.
 
And yes please listen to input from others on raiding technics it help us get to tier 11 and beyond. their always more then one way to skin cats <img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> 
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Spinja · 02-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Normally we dont have the issue of CC on raids, In faact the only time you should mezz is when its on a cleric, and the split tanks are busy. then mezz the mob, tash it, and slow it. Utdaan as far as the DS raid was concerned, only Me and Amusing had pets. now to re state what lore said : If you charm a mob, check with either the raid leader and your class leader, which will either be Myself, in my absence it will be Lore. Should Neither of us be there ask the group leaders and the raid leaders. The use of Dire Charm. Should you have purchased this meaningless tradeskill farming AA, and actually find a mob you can direcharm , ask the raid leader first . or class leader. Rarely will we use it becuase we dont have the pet hold AA. I only say its even a option on mobs that dont have an AE, like Tormax. And ill only use it if the raid leader or officer saays, "Hey i think DPS might be a touch light, go DC something" In that case shrink the punk. If it faalls in the giant class of mobs, it cant be shrunk, so cast nights dark terrror on it or Tricksters Augmentation to keep it small. Basic summary, dont charm, dont mezz (unless raid leader says so or people start dying). Later we will be needed to mezz, but for as ofright now, its not that big a deal, grab a focus bracer from a mage and play Ghetto Wizard. or do what i do, get a playstation game going while we clear. and look over every couple seconds and make sure everything is going ok. We shall have our time to shine, now is not that time. trust me , its less frustrating like this. more boring i know, but less frustrating. On the topic of AE tashing lore, im gonna say only use that when your the only chanter on a raid, other than that please dont, as it gives the rest of us something to do.<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_mischief.gif"> Spinjas says: Mobs Dont kill people, chanters with mobs kill people.

((charm breaks)))

Spinjas says : Yeah ok ouch!!

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Presto · 02-03-2005, 06:09 PM

Last night we did a simple raid in SSRA, 20+ people. Every so often we had pulls of 4-5 mobs, and too often someone died. Did we wipe ? Not even close. My point is simply this, if you are an offtank and you see a mob beating on a caster, offtank. You shouldn't need a raid leader to tell you that a mob beating on a caster is a bad thing. I think it can be a bad thing if people sit back and wait to be told to do things when it comes to offtanking. For example, let's say the raid leader declares the MA, and the 4 offtanks. Let's now assume 6 mobs come. If you have not been told you are an offtank, and see a mob having its way with a caster, offtank it. At least until an "official" offtank arrives. I would like to see more of our offtanks "sitting back", waiting to help, rather than assist the MA when times call for it. The stream of pulls before RC and the insignia camp are excellent examples of where I constantly see offtanks assisting the MA while mobs run free. Heck, I'd like to see offtanks pulling their mobs to one side, to help identify the non-tanked mobs, whenever possible. ----- The above comments are mine. Not to be considered guild strategy, just the rambling of a crazy erudite. ----- One last thing, which needs to be said. ALL of our offtanks play their class well. I am NOT in any way suggesting people can't do their jobs. The confusion comes when people get in the mode of "I was not declared on offtank, therefore I wait for the assist call, and attack". There are still times when I see mobs that are beating on casters, and I offtank with my air pet until help arrives.

Kyth · 02-03-2005, 06:26 PM

If you guys don't already have a channel "temenc" perhaps you should =). -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Lore · 02-03-2005, 06:31 PM

Heh yeah, Spin set one up last raid I think, good idea<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_wink.gif"> One other thing... I know Cads made a post around here somewhere about making multiple windows. Pleasse read it<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> Hearing "oh, it got lost in battle spam" is like nails on a chalk board to me. Oh.. and very good point on charm Kyth, thanks<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=856172">Lore Item</a>
 
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Sheriam · 02-05-2005, 08:13 PM

ooh good posts , all! I have attended a couple of raids with you guys recently and I admit it was a slightly confusing at first. Oddly, I never had the urge to Mezz (is that abnormal?) Truly, you seemed to have it under control! I did ask questions of the other attending Chanters (about Slowing or nuking) and I hope I always followed directions well. I think it was more confusing in Kael with 6 Chanters there, not knowing how I could be of help when we were all casting many of the same things, but it all worked out. And yes, Kyth, there IS a Tem Chanter channel which was great. Also, I want to say thanks for having me on the raids. I have really enjoyed it! I look forward to learning more from my fellow Enchanters. Hope to see you all again soon! Sheriam PintaGuinness  63 Phantasmist

Spinja · 02-06-2005, 12:34 PM

heh yeah on raids like that once the chanter numbers hit over 4 people are gonna get bored lol. Spinjas says: Mobs Dont kill people, chanters with mobs kill people.

((charm breaks)))

Spinjas says : Yeah ok ouch!!

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