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Kwelynin · 02-06-2006, 05:04 PM

Memory is probably the key point here. My guess is that what Gnat is
seeing is main EQ memory being paged out to disk. This will utterly
destroy performance. <SELECT name=KwelSkills> <OPTION selected>Kwelynin's Skills:<OPTION>Plow Enrage (250)<OPTION>Gnome Punting (220)<OPTION>Cleric Skirt Peeking (230)<OPTION>Belching (210)<OPTION>Polite insulting (250)</OPTION></SELECT>

Kyth · 02-06-2006, 05:08 PM

Yeah but when it's paged back in you should be fine. Are base system RAM requirements higher on the intel macs? I know folks have run on 256 RAM without it being unplayable. -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Gnatzilla · 02-06-2006, 05:09 PM

2 gigs both tested at the apple store it was the first thing I tested at the office and the first thing the Apple Genius tested. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Kwelynin · 02-06-2006, 05:11 PM

Kyth said:<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: Yeah but when it's paged back in you should be fine.

Are base system RAM requirements higher on the intel macs? I know folks have run on 256 RAM without it being unplayable.

<hr></div></center> 
 
Yeah, the problem is if the active pages cannot all fit in memory, in which case you thrash the disk. 
 
The memory requirements are undoubtly higher since Rosetta caches the
translated assembly code. I would have thought that the machine code
portion of EQ's memory footprint is small (with respective to the
graphic portions) but perhaps Rosetta feels the need to convert data on
the fly as well as executable instructions. <SELECT name=KwelSkills> <OPTION selected>Kwelynin's Skills:<OPTION>Plow Enrage (250)<OPTION>Gnome Punting (220)<OPTION>Cleric Skirt Peeking (230)<OPTION>Belching (210)<OPTION>Polite insulting (250)</OPTION></SELECT>

Gnatzilla · 02-06-2006, 05:29 PM

Rosetta uses the Transitive emulator which store the recompiled calls on the wrong side of the memory wall so in theory what happens to me should eventually happen to everyone just after a much longer time frame. It should never become an issue in day to day use even using a game. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Kyth · 02-06-2006, 06:25 PM

Damn I really should take the time to go understand how apple built Rosetta. /auc WTB more hours in the day How would it eventually happen, Gnat? Is there something causing the memory footprint to not be stable for legacy apps? (outside of whatever graphics library leak/problem there is) If that's a dumb question that I'd know the answer to instantly if I read anything on Rosetta's architecture, feel free to tell me to RTFM<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif">. -- 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=881745">Kyth</a>, Officer of Temerity 
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Gnatzilla · 02-06-2006, 08:55 PM

I have only had programming experience with the technology that rosetta is built on not rosetta itself so I will preface this explanation with that. An emulator takes each individual call and dynamically recompiles it for each call to the processor or hardware layer or whatever is set between the os and the processor. Transitive does it a little bit differently. They take each call and recompile it the same as a regular emulator but it also learns the application and recognizes calls that repeat or are similar and holds them in a queue in memory so that it can just access those immediately in essence the application becomes native in short bursts. Most of the time the emulator is just guessing at what will be best so the efficiency isn't quite what the makers of the emulator would have you believe. In Rosettas case Apple could have easily preprogrammed Rossetta with more knowledge like Transmeta did for the Irix ( was that it? ) operating system which was used for CGI. Now nothing is perfect so if you just sit and think for a minute you can see where this technology would fail. Eventually the memory pipe will become more saturated moving the the calls farther and farther away from that memory wall and degrading performance until the pipe is saturated entirely and it moves the information to the drive. There is no way in hell my computer should hit the wall as fast as it has. Ars Techa is awesome for explaining this crap if you are interested. I just heard from apple btw that they are changing the motherboard and processor because my processor is running about 60% hotter than it should and they think that is the problem. Also found out that my custom built Apple which was delivered from China only had a 128 video card even though I bought a 256 so if you get one CHECK IT. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Build · 02-06-2006, 10:15 PM

Gnatzilla said:<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: I have only had programming experience with the technology that rosetta is built on not rosetta itself so I will preface this explanation with that. An emulator takes each individual call and dynamically recompiles it for each call to the processor or hardware layer or whatever is set between the os and the processor. Transitive does it a little bit differently. They take each call and recompile it the same as a regular emulator but it also learns the application and recognizes calls that repeat or are similar and holds them in a queue in memory so that it can just access those immediately in essence the application becomes native in short bursts. Most of the time the emulator is just guessing at what will be best so the efficiency isn't quite what the makers of the emulator would have you believe. In Rosettas case Apple could have easily preprogrammed Rossetta with more knowledge like Transmeta did for the Irix ( was that it? ) operating system which was used for CGI. Now nothing is perfect so if you just sit and think for a minute you can see where this technology would fail. Eventually the memory pipe will become more saturated moving the the calls farther and farther away from that memory wall and degrading performance until the pipe is saturated entirely and it moves the information to the drive. There is no way in hell my computer should hit the wall as fast as it has. Ars Techa is awesome for explaining this crap if you are interested. I just heard from apple btw that they are changing the motherboard and processor because my processor is running about 60% hotter than it should and they think that is the problem. Also found out that my custom built Apple which was delivered from China only had a 128 video card even though I bought a 256 so if you get one CHECK IT. <hr></div></center> 

 
My Profiler says i have the 256 Video card. I check it as soon as i booted it up the 1st time. Since i seen where some that bought one from the apple store was having problems with the video card as you said above.
 
I am having Problems with Tearing of the Video in Front row. Which is another problem that seams to be common with the 256 video card<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_sad.gif"> Hopefully that is a software problem and not a hardware problem.
 
I am calling apple tomorrow and talk to them about the video tearing that i am getting in Front Row and to find out where my Applecare is at i bought at the same time i got i bought this mac. 
Duke Build Maplewood Lord Protector 
KNIGHT OF THUNDER 

GM SMITH 241
 

<a target="foobar" HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=743688&resize=true">(BUILD)</a>

Utdaan · 02-06-2006, 11:30 PM

What do you mean by "Tearing of the video"? <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=834254" target="_Blank"><img src="http://members.cox.net/fbiven/testbanner.jpg"></img></a> 
<SELECT NAME = "Teh Tradeskilz">
<OPTION SELECTED>Grand Master Fletcher (250)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Baking (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Brewing (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Jewellery Craft (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Pottery (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Smithing (175)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Tailoring (166)</OPTION></SELECT> 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1254571" target="_Blank">Wulfgar</a> 
52 Warrior 
<SELECT NAME = "Other Tradeskilz">
<OPTION SELECTED>Smithing (195)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Brewing (143)</OPTION></SELECT>

Gnatzilla · 02-06-2006, 11:57 PM

It's slang for taking a crap dork. Dumb f'ing rangers. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Gnatzilla · 02-07-2006, 09:01 AM

Utdaan said:<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: What do you mean by "Tearing of the video"?<hr></div></center> 

http://www.consumermachine.com/

BTW Build the article mentions the fix for the tearing issue. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Build · 02-07-2006, 02:00 PM

ok so far it looks GREAT<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> been raiding all night and it been really fast! 
Duke Build Maplewood Lord Protector 
KNIGHT OF THUNDER 

GM SMITH 241
 

<a target="foobar" HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=743688&resize=true">(BUILD)</a>

Utdaan · 02-07-2006, 05:22 PM

Psssst...Gnat...you linked the 3rd page of this thread instead of the website. <img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_wink.gif"> <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=834254" target="_Blank"><img src="http://members.cox.net/fbiven/testbanner.jpg"></img></a> 
<SELECT NAME = "Teh Tradeskilz">
<OPTION SELECTED>Grand Master Fletcher (250)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Baking (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Brewing (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Jewellery Craft (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Pottery (200)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Smithing (175)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Tailoring (166)</OPTION></SELECT> 
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1254571" target="_Blank">Wulfgar</a> 
52 Warrior 
<SELECT NAME = "Other Tradeskilz">
<OPTION SELECTED>Smithing (195)</OPTION>
<OPTION>Brewing (143)</OPTION></SELECT>

Gnatzilla · 02-07-2006, 05:25 PM

PSST Source says the website I intended. _______________________________________________ <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=768984">Can Dual Wield AND carry a dozen donuts.</a>- Give up that bitter black urine men call coffee. Ahh. Java devil, you are now my bitch. --- The Tick <a href="http://www.thetick.ws/wavs/lep1/comprehend.wav">Tick sound bite</a>

Build · 02-07-2006, 06:57 PM

Gnatzilla said:<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: Utdaan said:<center><div class="QuotedForumText" style="width: 90%;text-align: left;"><hr>quote: What do you mean by "Tearing of the video"?<hr></div></center> 

http://www.consumermachine.com/

BTW Build the article mentions the fix for the tearing issue.
<hr></div></center> 
 
Thanks Gnat

i had that info already.

I called up Apple Today and talk to them about the problem. and it being push up to the engineering dept. they sent me a capture data program. So they can see what is causing it. and hopfully fix it<img src="/forums/images/gpicons/face_happy.gif"> 
Duke Build Maplewood Lord Protector 
KNIGHT OF THUNDER 

GM SMITH 241
 

<a target="foobar" HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=743688&resize=true">(BUILD)</a>